What does it actually mean for a desire to be real? Does it mean that in the moment you think you want it? You should want it? You want it because it’s what someone else wants? Or does it not even have to do with how you feel in the moment itself? Maybe it is reflection on a past desire or anticipation for a future one. What you’re talking about relates a lot to my own work around trusting myself and being more aware of what my own body is telling me (thank you for defining hyper attunement so well). What you’re talking about has everything to do with why when some women (including myself!) are asked “what do you want?” (sexually or otherwise) and they aren’t able to answer. Because they may not know. And if we don’t know it’s hard to connect into those wants and desires as something real. Thank you for sharing :)
I'm curious what you think about the tension between having this sort of sexual awakening and being in a normal monogamous marriage/LTR where visiting a dom or what have you is very much going to violate that relationship. It's very interesting to me the way we've seen this sort of female sexual awakening (and acting upon it, consequences be damned) celebrated in the last few years vs. the way we still talk about men who cheat on their wives for whatever reason. Do you think there's a double standard there, is it different because of the way women have historically repressed their sexual desires, what? Because I don't see this dealt with in what feels like a realistic way in most media (most guys in real life are not going to react like Antonio Banderas in Babygirl).
I hear you there. I come at this less from a "is this right or wrong" perspective and more of a "this is happening, did you know?" perspective. But as to your opening question, I guess my personal opinion on that tension is this: can a wife discuss her real desires with her husband? Can he, with her? If not, why not?
I'm also curious about the realistic way you're referring to. Can you say more about that? Realistic as in, the husband leaves his wife?
The notion of being able to openly discuss desire is an important and tricky one. Married couples should absolutely be able to discuss their desires, but I suspect in many cases people are reluctant to do so because they don't think their partner would be into it or even sympathetic to the desire. And if they're not, it also raises the specter of infidelity (if my wife/husband is telling me they want this thing that I'm not going to provide, can I trust them not to get it elsewhere?) so there are definitely blockers to frank talk. As is often the case I think trust and communication are really important.
Regarding the realism, I just don't think most husbands would react the way the husbands in All Fours or Babygirl react (of the two Babygirl is probably closer to realistic since Antonio Banderas does breakdown before the reconcile, and it doesn't feel like a sure thing that they will). Generally most men I know, myself included, would be devastated and probably not able to really recover from the breach of trust or the feelings of inadequacy such that even if the marriage continued it would never be the same or likely even very healthy again.
I have a lot of sympathy for anyone, man or woman, who is in a marriage and comes to realize that their sexual desires are not and aren't going to be fulfilled by their partners. Frankly I think this happens a lot more often to men, but in the much less interesting way where their wives just stop wanting to have sex very often for whatever reason (and there are plenty of legitimate reasons...perimenopause is a bitch even in loving relationships). But I do feel like the media around women's sexual awakening often elides the damage pursuing those desires outside the scope of marriage can do, and it also ignores the fact that part of getting married for almost all people is making a commitment to sexual exclusivity even knowing that it's likely one or both partners will experience desires that won't be fulfilled by the marriage. What do you think? Is there a double standard here with men's vs. women's infidelity, does it even matter?
This has just blown my mind. Thank you for writing it. I am part of the A4 underground. But I have decided for now that I can’t go and get what I want or blow up my life. I had pondered declaring my love to an old friend who once pursued me and who I declined at the time as I was already with someone. He is now always in my sexual fantasies. But I really can’t deal with the fall out on my domestic situation. It’s incredibly frustrating tho- what if I never get to experience any of these scenarios that seem to be appealing to me. I remember learning a self defense course for a job I had working with offenders. And we had to practice breaking free from being held up against a wall- it was my first taste of that (consensual) dynamic of being over powered and I liked the effect it had on me. It’s funny I’ve spent all my life seeking god etc and joined so many different movements (including being celibate as part of a spiritual practice!!) but now A4 has kind of started a new quest in me. In some ways I wish I could ignore it and go back to deciding it’s okay that my sex life (with very lovely and dependable and kind of asexual partner) is almost non existent. But your article has felt like a gentle whisper that this desire and awakening is not going to go away…
PS I taped this while my power went out and came back on, which is why there’s a few beep-boops at the end.
What does it actually mean for a desire to be real? Does it mean that in the moment you think you want it? You should want it? You want it because it’s what someone else wants? Or does it not even have to do with how you feel in the moment itself? Maybe it is reflection on a past desire or anticipation for a future one. What you’re talking about relates a lot to my own work around trusting myself and being more aware of what my own body is telling me (thank you for defining hyper attunement so well). What you’re talking about has everything to do with why when some women (including myself!) are asked “what do you want?” (sexually or otherwise) and they aren’t able to answer. Because they may not know. And if we don’t know it’s hard to connect into those wants and desires as something real. Thank you for sharing :)
Liv a thousand times YES! All of this! How I want to restack or somehow share this very comment. You get it.
I'm curious what you think about the tension between having this sort of sexual awakening and being in a normal monogamous marriage/LTR where visiting a dom or what have you is very much going to violate that relationship. It's very interesting to me the way we've seen this sort of female sexual awakening (and acting upon it, consequences be damned) celebrated in the last few years vs. the way we still talk about men who cheat on their wives for whatever reason. Do you think there's a double standard there, is it different because of the way women have historically repressed their sexual desires, what? Because I don't see this dealt with in what feels like a realistic way in most media (most guys in real life are not going to react like Antonio Banderas in Babygirl).
I hear you there. I come at this less from a "is this right or wrong" perspective and more of a "this is happening, did you know?" perspective. But as to your opening question, I guess my personal opinion on that tension is this: can a wife discuss her real desires with her husband? Can he, with her? If not, why not?
I'm also curious about the realistic way you're referring to. Can you say more about that? Realistic as in, the husband leaves his wife?
The notion of being able to openly discuss desire is an important and tricky one. Married couples should absolutely be able to discuss their desires, but I suspect in many cases people are reluctant to do so because they don't think their partner would be into it or even sympathetic to the desire. And if they're not, it also raises the specter of infidelity (if my wife/husband is telling me they want this thing that I'm not going to provide, can I trust them not to get it elsewhere?) so there are definitely blockers to frank talk. As is often the case I think trust and communication are really important.
Regarding the realism, I just don't think most husbands would react the way the husbands in All Fours or Babygirl react (of the two Babygirl is probably closer to realistic since Antonio Banderas does breakdown before the reconcile, and it doesn't feel like a sure thing that they will). Generally most men I know, myself included, would be devastated and probably not able to really recover from the breach of trust or the feelings of inadequacy such that even if the marriage continued it would never be the same or likely even very healthy again.
I have a lot of sympathy for anyone, man or woman, who is in a marriage and comes to realize that their sexual desires are not and aren't going to be fulfilled by their partners. Frankly I think this happens a lot more often to men, but in the much less interesting way where their wives just stop wanting to have sex very often for whatever reason (and there are plenty of legitimate reasons...perimenopause is a bitch even in loving relationships). But I do feel like the media around women's sexual awakening often elides the damage pursuing those desires outside the scope of marriage can do, and it also ignores the fact that part of getting married for almost all people is making a commitment to sexual exclusivity even knowing that it's likely one or both partners will experience desires that won't be fulfilled by the marriage. What do you think? Is there a double standard here with men's vs. women's infidelity, does it even matter?
This has just blown my mind. Thank you for writing it. I am part of the A4 underground. But I have decided for now that I can’t go and get what I want or blow up my life. I had pondered declaring my love to an old friend who once pursued me and who I declined at the time as I was already with someone. He is now always in my sexual fantasies. But I really can’t deal with the fall out on my domestic situation. It’s incredibly frustrating tho- what if I never get to experience any of these scenarios that seem to be appealing to me. I remember learning a self defense course for a job I had working with offenders. And we had to practice breaking free from being held up against a wall- it was my first taste of that (consensual) dynamic of being over powered and I liked the effect it had on me. It’s funny I’ve spent all my life seeking god etc and joined so many different movements (including being celibate as part of a spiritual practice!!) but now A4 has kind of started a new quest in me. In some ways I wish I could ignore it and go back to deciding it’s okay that my sex life (with very lovely and dependable and kind of asexual partner) is almost non existent. But your article has felt like a gentle whisper that this desire and awakening is not going to go away…
The truth here makes my skin tingle…thank YOU for writing this comment. The A4 underground!✊🏼
I absolutely want to be part of the All Fours underground where do I sign up!?!
@AURORE the subscriber chat of @Miranda July ’s Substack is a great place to start!
brilliant